Truth of Legend?

Yair Davidiy (Hebrew Nations) Replies to Criticism from an Irate Irishman (19 August, 2013, Elul 13, 5773)

• Emain Macha

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2. Yair Replies. [To find answers for specific points compare numbers in (..)].

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(1) What Does Dan Mean in Irish?

Clifford Riley  wrote:

Your site states
"It is certainly no coincidence that the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means "Judge," just as Dan does in Hebrew!"

Reply:

You said that our site says that  # the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means "Judge," just as Dan does in Hebrew!" #

Raymond McNair made the statement you refer to. We quote him in the article,
Various Traditions # 3 by Yair Davidiy
THE TRIBE OF DANA [TUATHA DE DANAAN]
We found McNair to be reliable BUT he could have been mistaken or misled. It happens.
Unfortunately I do not [yet] know Irish or any other Celtic tongue.
I do not wish nor intend to enter a linguistic confrontation on these issues.
We have however spent some time and effort on these and related subjects.

Proverbs 14:
23 In all labor there is profit,
But idle chatter leads only to poverty.

We therefore feel at liberty to make a few common sense remarks on your criticisms.
I took a quick look at an online Irish-English dictionary.

An English-Irish Dictionary
Edward O'Reilly, John O'Donovan (1864)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=dX8NAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
The word "DAN" in Irish is translated into English as "s.m. a poem; science; work; fate; destiny; lot; adj. strenuous, undaunted, dictatorial.

The word DONN  in Irish is translated into English as # a king, a lord, a poet.... #

In Hebrew DAN means judge, decide, adjudicate. It can also connote RULER, or declare justice, decide laws.  
It can also suggest save, rescue, rule over, as in
Genesis 49:
16 Dan shall judge [Hebrew "Yadin" from the root DaN] his people  as one of the tribes of Israel.

We saw that the Irish Dictionary says that Dan can mean (amongst other meanings) "fate; destiny". In Hebrew we have the word root DNH giving us both Dan and Din connoting ruling and judgement and decision. So too, DONN (which in Hebrew would be considered as a related word) in Irish can mean a king, or lord, i.e. someone associated with judgement.

According to the Dictionary the Hebrew and Irish meanings are not the same but as the etymology of words goes they are not that far apart either.
It is easy to see where the Irish DAN and/or DONN may well both have derived from the Hebrew.

You said:

I's not coincidence it's an abosulte fantasy. The fact is that in Irish and Scottish Gaelic "Dun" (more accurately "Dun") means "Fort","Fortress", "Fortified place", "Royal Residence", "Castle", etc. Whilst the Old Irish word for Judge is "Breithem" Modern Irish "breitheamh" and "breitheamain" as the plural. Whilst the Scottish Gaelic word is "Breitheamh", all of which are pronounced "Brehon".

Answer:
The fact that Brehon means judge in  Irish does not mean that at some stage there were not other words with the same meaning.

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(2) Tribe of Dana or of Ana? 

You said:

Equally, within the Irish language,

Tuath means tribe and kingdom,

Tuatha is the plural and means people, tribes and nation;  

De means god

Danann means of Ana.

There are no alternative meanings for either De or Danann.  Whilst even a crude translation becomes 'tribes of god of Ana'. However, the modern translation is `People of the Goddess Danu, whilst the older spelling of Tuatha De' Danaan translates as `Tribes of the God, whose mother is Ana' (also given as Anu, the De is  a 10th  Century  prosthetic  [artificial] addition to associate Ana with the continental Celtic Goddess Danu).  Both translations reflect the claim by Gaels that they are one of many tribes who through a series of tribal deities (known as the Tuatha De and the divine tribe) they are descended from Brian, the eldest son of their creator deity the Goddess Ana.  Prior to this the Tuatha De Danann were known as the `fir Tri nDna' (men of the three Gods), which expands the previous line of descent to include tribes descended from Brian's younger brothers Iuchair and Iucharba.

Your group focuses its claims around the Torah, but you ignore the genetic, linguistic, archaeoligical, philological, mythical, culture and other evidence from the Irish themselves as they disprove every claim your group makes.  If you actually had even a basic knowledge of these you'd know that until the 10th Century the Gods of the Gaels were referred to as the Tuatha De (tribes of God), whilst the Tuatha De Dananu (People of the Goddess Danu) are referred to as people. But an error made in the 10th century linked both together and merged them into one. An error which was corrected in the Book of Leinster, but failed to correct the error among others scribes. 

Brit-Am Answer:
The Irish goddess Dana is paralleled by the Welsh ancestress Don and the Children of Don in the Welsh collection of legends known as the Mabinogion.  This dates from the 1300s but derives from much earlier sources. There are also Welsh legends with this form. Even if the Welsh Legends were inspired by the Irish ones it would still show that the names Dan/Don for an ancestral goddess were widely accepted.
It is not proven that there ever was a  "continental Celtic Goddess Danu". This seems to be a hypothetical modern linguistic reconstruction.
If Tuatha Da' Danaan does not mean  "Tribes of the god, son of Ana" as you say then it could be read "People of  the goddess Dana"  as previously supposed and as you admit. There is no real proof that Dana was a form of Ana. Perhaps it was the opposite?
You said:
#... until the 10th Century the Gods of the Gaels were referred to as the Tuatha De (tribes of God), whilst the Tuatha De Dananu (People of the Goddess Danu) are referred to as people. But an error made in the 10th century linked both together and merged them into one. An error which was corrected in the Book of Leinster, but failed to correct the error among others scribes.  #
This sounds like a hypothetical reconstruction.
What documents exist before the "10th century"? None.
The legends were transmitted orally or in manuscripts that have since been lost to us. We do not know what was said before the 900s (10th century) because we have no manuscripts.
You are saying that in the first written versions an error was made that was later corrected by one source (and not by any others) about 200 years later. Such a claim needs to be proven. It is going against what all the other versions say and contradicts the oldest extant accounts.

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(3)  The [Jewish] Children of God. Concerning the Tuatha de and the Tuatha de Danaan.

There are grounds as you say, to believe that originally two separate groups were intended but were later conflated.
There was the Tuathe de or "Tribe [People of] God" and the Tuatha de Danaan or "people of the goddess Dana".
Tuathe de is a name given to the Jews though perhaps also previously to others.
# The term "Tuathe de" pre-dates the "Lebor Gabala" and refers to the Jews in the Irish translation of the Bible in the Gaelic language... The Tuatha-de or Fir -de were so called say some scholars in reference to the old Irish gods # Hughes p.35.
Later, as David Hughes, says Christians (who believed in the Trinity) were referred to as `fir Tri nDna' (men of the three Gods).
David Hughes, "The British Chronicle" (2008 p.35), tells us:
The first king of the Irish Tuatha -de was Ion son of Kari in Irish annals who may be identified with Jochanan son of Kareah, a cousin of King Zedekiah, who led the fleeing Jews to Egypt (Jeremiah 43:5-7).  [ "Ion" (like Scottish "Ian") is Jochanan i.e. John].
We thus have the possibility that a group from Judah were present were present amongst the early Irish. This would answer several questions.
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(4)   DNA.   Were the irish from Spain according to DNA Findings?

  You said:

You'd know that Genetics show that the Gaels came from Spain, but are indirectly linked to the Celts.

Reply:
This is Old DNA which changes its mind every other day. Present-day consensus links the Irish more to the British and northern Europe than to Spain. Check it up.

cf. Wikipedia. Irish People. Genetics.

# That there exists an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005 #

I myself have R-M222 which is the marker of descendants of Niel and his brothers.   It accounts for ca. 12% of the population of Ireland though also present in Scotland. This is an offshoot of R-L21 which is found in 20 to 50% of the population of England and Ireland.
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(5)   Did the Tribe of Dana Die Out? 

 You said:

 This means the Gaels aren't descended from the Celts, but are a tribe who through contact with the Celts adopted 'aspects of the Celtic culture. Equally the Annals show that after fighting the Fir Bolgs they suffered such major casualites that they couldn't defeat the incoming Milesian Gaels. That the Tuatha De' Danann are forced to travel west into County Roscommon, where not only all historical references to them cease but County Roscommon is referred  to as the "Graveyard of the Tuatha De Danann". In other words the Tuatha De Danann died out and left not descendants. Whilst the error which merged the Tuatha De and with the Tuatha De Danann, changed the Milesian Gael descent from Tuatha De to descent for the Tuatha De Danann.

Reply:
Irish Mythology says roughly that first came Cessair, then Bartholomew (Partholon) both of whom were wiped out. Then came Nemed who was driven away by the Fomorians who it was said came from North Africa though modern researchers say they were from Scandinavia. Semion [cf. Simeon of Israel], a descendent of Nemed went to Greece [Greece seems to be the name given to a northern region and not the Greece we know today].  Semion returned to Ireland as the Fir Bolg. The Fir Bolg split into the Fir Bolg proper, the Gaileoin, and the Fir Domhnann (Dumnonni).
Another descendant of Nemed returned as the Tuatha de Danaan, and a third went to Britain.
See:
The Five Invasions of Ireland
http://www.aislingmagazine.com/aislingmagazine/articles/TAM24/TheFive.html
The Tuatha de Danaan came from the north. They fought against both the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians.

After that came the Sons of Mil who, you say, drove the Dana into Roscommon.

Roscommon is within the Province of Connaught, in the west of Ireland.
In my opinion the Dana merged with the Fir Bolg in Connaught.  Irish legends indicate this and also that the Dana intermarried with the Fomorians who had been in Ireland before them.
The Dumnonni (Fir Domhnann) are listed as part of the Fir Bolg. They and the Dana, in our opinion, are one and the same. It is recognized that the Dumnoni tribe of SW England, the Damnoni of SW Scotland, and the Fir Domnain (Dumnonni) of Connaught effectually all bear the same name. The Dumnoni area of SW England was also known as Dannonia. 

Celtic tribes of Southern Scotland and North-East England
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celticscotlowlands.shtml
Damnoni (Lat.), Dumnonii (Gr.): Lived north of the Selgovae. Their towns were Colanica, Vindogara, Coria, Alauna, Lindum and Victoria.4Claudius Ptolemy, The Geography, II.2. They could be related to the tribes of the same name in south-west Britain and in Ireland.

Dumnonnii and Dana are linguistically close.  Our impression is,  the Dana who were originally known as metallurgists suffered defeats and a lowering of status. They moved to the west, into Connaught. They became "diggers of the earth" i.e. miners of minerals which is what the word Dumnonnii might mean.  Ancient peoples often rationalized and reformulated existing names to describe a changed reality.

We have "the Dumnoni tribe of SW England, the Damnoni of SW Scotland, the Fir Domnain element among the Leinster people and NW Connaught" 

Quote:
The Damnoni
http://www.templum.freeserve.co.uk/history/celts/damnoni.htm
The first tribe associated with Drumchapel [Glasgow, Scotland] are the Damnoni. The Damnoni settled in the lands of Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire, Dumbartonshire and parts of Stirlingshire. There were also Damnoni tribes known from Devon [southwest England], Britanny [West France] and Ireland where they were known as 'the men who used to deepen the earth'. Damnoni literally means 'men under care of the goddess of the deep' and this would suggest that the Damnoni were originally miners. They spoke old British, a P-Celtic language similar to Welsh.

The Irish Damnonians were known as the Fir Domnann or the Fir Bolg. They settled in Connacht and Leinster. In the Irish legends they were said to have descended from Semion of the Nemeds. Nemed indicates a British origin. An entry for King Alexander II attests this. In legend, the Nemedians revolted against the Formorians but the Formorians killed all but thirty of the usurpers. The surviving Nemedians leave Ireland and colonise Britain, but the descendants return to Ireland as the Fir Bolg and the People of Dana. The Strathclyde [Scotland] Damnoni would have their own myths and legends.
End Quote.

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(6) Nial and Israel

You said:

You'd know about the myth of Nual and his encounter with the Israelites in which he resupplies them, they leave and he stays with his son in Egypt and does his grandson, whilst his Great-Grandson Asru leaves Egypt with his family for Scythia.  Nual son was Goidelic Glas, the progenitor of the Gaels. In other words this myth shows that not only are the Gaels are unrelated to Israelites but weren't members of the Tribe of Dan.

Reply:
Asru (also rendered as Isru) is a form of the Name Israel.
The Ten Tribes  became identified with the Scythians.
We identify the Tribe of Dan primarily with Denmark. We understand that an offshoot from Dan became the People of Dana (Tuatha de Danaan) and settled in Ireland. They were however a minority of the Irish Population. Nevertheless a good portion (not necessarily all) of the Irish may be of Israelite descent but from other Tribes.
The myth you quoted from concerning Goedel Glas and Nual (Niel) does place the ancestor of most Irish in Egypt at the time the Israelites were leaving it in the time of Moses.
In a country ruled by the Roman Catholic Church that was against any kind of identification with the Jews, or with Israel, existing traditions would naturally be doctored. They could not say they were descended from Israel so they said they were with the Israelites in Egypt, befriended them,  included Israelites amongst them, and were with the Israelites just before the parting of the Red Sea. After that they went to Ireland were at first they kept the Mosaic Law (see Louis Hyman, "The Jews of Ireland", Jerusalem, 1972, p.1 and Yair Davidiy, "Lost Israelite Identity", 1996, for sources).  In other words they came as close as they possibly could to saying they were of Israelite descent without expressly admitting it!
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(7) Waving the Flag. Do Irish Hang-Ups Justify their Anti-Jewish Prejudices?

You said:

You'd also know that when Christians arrived in Ireland they found a culture whose mythology contained within it no references to any event within either the Torah or the Bible.  So they created pseudo myths in which real figures from Irish myth would through ludicrus situtations find themselves acting as witnesses to Biblical.  These pseudo accounts are so piss poor; they place Golamh (founder of the Milesian Gaels) and his as living in 1400 BC, the 10th and 4th Century.  These faked myths form the basis of crap preached by British Israelites, such as the Stone Scone being Jacobs Pillar, even though a pillar is a column and the Stone of Scone is a block of red sandstone of a type found in Scone.

You'd know that the hand which occurs on the arms of several Gaelic families as is associated with the Celtic ancestor deity Lugh Lamhfhada. But which in its red hand form is associated with the Irish king Lughaidh Lamhdhearg.

Reply:
The Red Hand of Ulster is said to have been the symbol of the O'Neil clan or one of its branches. It became the unofficial flag of North Ireland. In most versions it was placed over a Star of David. The Star of David symbol facilitated the identification of this flag with Judah during the Protestant-Catholic Troubles in North Ireland.

Supporters of Catholic football teams in Ulster had adopted the practice of waving the PLO [Palestine] flag at mixed [Catholic-Protestant] football matches. Catholic IRA sympathizers also took to depicting the PLO firing RPGs [bazooka type rocket-launchers] etc (presumably at Jews) in street graffiti.
[Why the Irish Catholics identified with the Palestinians I do not know.  That is a question for you to answer.  Maybe many of them are not really of Israelite descent? During WW2 the Irish Republic refused to take in any Jewish refugees. Today, Ireland is considered one of the most anti-Jewish  countiries in Europe. EU attempts to boycott Israeli teachers etc often emanate from Ireland.  Ireland and Israel are similar in many ways. The Jews like the Irish. Why are the Irish against the Jews? Is it because of their Catholic religion or are there other reasons?]
Anyway, in reply to the pro-Arab expressions of the Catholics, Protestant supporters took to occasionally waving the flag of Israel or hanging it up on street lampposts etc.
Following that someone combined the Israeli Flag with the traditional one of Ulster.  This was easy to do since both depict the Star of David. The idea was taken up by others.  We received one that was sent to us. 
See:
Ulster: Israeli Flag Combined with Ulster Banner
We sometimes use this flag as a backdrop to our YouTube Clip talks.
We do this because:
(a) We need a backdrop.
(b) The colors and pattern are suitable.
(c) The idea incorporates support for the State of Israel from a traditional British community.  Nothing anti-Irish is intended.
If you wish to send me an Irish flag I might use that as well upon occasion.
Many of our Bible Studies and Commentary Instalments depict the Irish Coat-of Arms e.g. go to
http://www.britam.org/Proverbs/Proverbs12.html
and Scroll Down to the end. The Coats of Arms of the four Irish Provinces are displayed. Send me something like that in the form of a flag and I shall probably on occasion make use of it. It is attractive and evokes interest.

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(8)  Cyrus Gordon and a Non-Provenanced Quotation

You said:

I was informed by the Canadian branch of the British Israelites that the claim that Tuatha De Danann means 'Tribe of Dan' was made by Dr Cyrus Gordon, an American born of Jewish Lithuanian parents. His doctorate was in Near Eastern Studies.  He never understood nor spoke a word of Gaelic, yet British Israelites and such as you believe that a man who never spoke a word of Gaelic and knew nothing all about the Gaelic Culture, knows more about the Gaelic language and culture than millions who speak  that language each day and those to whom that culture belongs. To do so isn't just ignorance, its condensation [condescension] to the point of racism.

Reply:
Tuatha de Danann may be understood to mean Tribe of Dan as you yourself admit. Most Irish scholars for centuries understood it that way. Now you say it was a mistake.  Maybe it was but you still need to prove it and proof on this matter is lacking. In Hebrew the name Dan could quite easily have been pronounced as Dana. The name Dana is another way of pronouncing the Hebrew name Dan.
If  Dr Cyrus Gordon acknowledged this I would like to know the source.  As important as Dr Gordon might be no-one is going to believe only on his say-so, if he said so. Cyrus Gordon was a great scholar. He was proficient in very many languages,  linguistics, and other disciplines. He was an expert in the decipherment of ancient texts. Dr Gordon also became an advocate of the belief in Old World contact with the Americas before Colombus. As a result he was discriminated against by the academic commuinity. His students after graduation found difficulty in finding placements. This shows the Academic  Inquisition-type mentality that makes non-conventional suggestions difficult to promote.

To appreciate Israelite Descent one needs to be open to the Biblical Message. A familiarity with the "Old" Testament is highly desirable. To properly evaluate claimed similarities between Gaelic and Hebrew one should know both languages. Not many people do. Our own understanding is based primarily on the Bible. We use other sources as supportive evidence. These sources exist. Not only that, but in the recent past many great irish Scholars, such as W. B. Yeats who probably knew Gailic and Irish traditions far better than yourself, were strongly convinced that the Irish descended from Phoenicians. William Butler Yeats (1865 - 939)  in 1923 was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature as the first Irishman so honoured for what the Nobel Committee described as "inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation." The Phoenicians spoke a language that was similar to Hebrew. They worshipped Canaanite gods and had a Canaanite culture. The Israelites from the Ten Tribes before their Exile did the same. If a people based on language and culture could conceivably have been Phoenician Canaanites then they could also be Israelites. Why was it OK for Yeats to believe in Phoenician orgins but condescending for us to propose Israelite ones? Your virulent irrational objection to the possibility of Israelite origins possibly indicates an ingrained abhorrence of anything associated with the Hebrews. Fair enough. Perhaps it does not apply to you?

Incidentally, Roger  O'Connor  (1762-1834) also believed in the Phoenician origins of the Irish.  He was repeating a theme that was evidently well-known in his time. He was an Irish Nationalist and the father of Feargus O'Connor, a well-known Irish activist. Roger  O'Connor  published the "Chronicles of Eri, BEING THE HISTORY OF THE GAAL SCIOT IBER: OR, THE IRISH PEOPLE ; TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS IN THE PHOENICIAN DIALECT OF THE SCYTHIAN LANGUAGE. "
O'Connor claims that the Gaal who came to Ireland were Phoenicians whom he claims were also Hebrews. The overall details are consistent with our historical research findings and point to an Israelite Ancestry.

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(9)  "Some of My Best Friends"

You said:

Millions of people who speak the Gaelic language and to whom the Gaelic Culture belongs find the claims made by your group to be utter and complete crap, which why when asked those who run the various national branches of the British Israelites cannot, when asked name one academic body who support such claims.   Whilst within the island of Ireland  the only people who support such claims are the Loyalists, Unionist and Orangemen, the very people who spent centuries trying to wipe out the Gaelic langauge, culture and race.

Our beliefs concern not only the irish but also most of the West European peoples.   We incorporate numerous academic findings as may be seen from our published works and the references given. There are academic professionals (such as Venneman and Kristensen) whose findings parallel our own. We have nothing against the Irish per se. On the contrary. I myself through my father am probably of Irish descent. So was Ronald Reagan and numerous other great men.   I grew up in Australia amongst friends of Irish descent.  I feel a debt of gratitude to them. I find it hard to believe that anyone, anywhere, in the present day wishes to  "wipe out the Gaelic langauge, culture and race".  Our organization is not British Israel but different.   Many of our earlier YouTube clips used Irish tunes as background.   Self-declared Irishmen like yourself are the ones who are prejudiced against us.   They are also sometimes anti-Jewish and against the State of Israel. Bigoted Irishmen in Ireland want to give my Homeland over to Arab jihad maniacs! We are the ones who should be complaining.  There are pro-Palestinian activists in Ireland who it seems would like to see us wiped out!

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(10)  Fighting Bigotry and Prejudice for the Sake of Truth

You said:

So are the claims made by your group the result of ignorance   or deliberate lies?

Yours C.T.Riley

Reply:
Our claims are based on the Bible and secular historical sources.   We use the secular sources to the best of our ability. We endeavor to check the veracity of information we receive. Nevertheless we are human. In the past we have made mistakes and when this was brought to our attention corrected them.  
We are faced constantly with prejudiced ignorant bigots such as yourself who do not want to hear anything from us.
Perhaps they feel forbidden to do so?   How would the Pope react if   many of   the Irish started saying they were Israelite Tribes?

Irish is related to Welsh.
Karel Jongeling, "Comparing Welsh & Hebrew", The Netherlands, 2000, wrote a 175 detailed book discussing the 100s (or even thousands) of books and essays that over the centuries (beginning in ca. 1551) have compared the Hebrew and Welsh languages.
His work was widely accepted in academic circles.
At the very end, he says:
#... the Celtic languages, although they may originate in the east, are western Indo-European languages indeed #

We feel that if he had have been more assertive regarding a Hebrew connection his work would never have been accepted, never reviewed, and treated as if it did not exist. If he is an academic his chances of getting ahead may well have been severely diminished.

See Also:
Hebrew Linguistic Traits in Welsh
This essay compared phrases in Welsh with those in Hebrew.
I myself do not know Welsh and the examples given were taken from another work i.e.
L.G.A. Roberts (1919)   quoting  Charles Edwards ("Hanes y Fydd", 1675).

Native speakers of Welsh on at least two occasions have examined this list and confirm that most of the examples given are correct.
Continued at Emain Macha