Reply to claim that the Ten Tribes are in Korea (15 April, 2013, Iyar 5, 5773)
Amnon Goldberg wrote:
Amongst other interesting speculations, the Yeranen Yaakov blog http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.co.il/
brings this by R.Yekutiel Fish
which presumably is not in accord with Britam's position that the 10 Tribes are in the West:
North Korea and the 10 Tribes
If we connect this to our reality nowadays, that North Korea, which is in the east of the world, is threatening an immediate nuclear war against the United States, it is clear from Haza"l that the 10 tribes are in North Korea, something that also makes sense in reality since the area is closed off from the outside world until today, and it's impossible to know what's going on there.Â And I heard from Rav Eliyahu Avihayil Shlit"a, who deals with 10-tribe issues, that they found tribes in South Korea that they think are descendants of the 10 tribes.Â And similarly, they have also written me in the name of Dr. Avigdor Shahan HY"V who researched the topic of the 10 tribes.
In the past you have brought to public attention (through letters to various newspapers, and journals, etc) sundry items of interesting and valuable information. It might be worth your while to collect what you have written in a book. Quite a few of your postings have also gone out on the Brit-Am Now forum even though the subject matter usually has only a rather oblique relevance to what we are about. Apart from that, every now and again you come up with claims and/or challenges to our belief that the Ten Tribes are in the west. This belief of ours is in accordance with Scripture and with history. If our hundreds of proofs are too much for you to handle all at once why not deal with some of our main points. Examples of some of our proofs may be referenced from our article:
Three Main Points
This shows that the Lost Ten TribesÂ are amongst Western Peoples since Scripture says they would number a vast numbers of people of international significance; be in the west; and be the most powerful countries on earth with their influence reaching to every area, and their strategy based on forward bases capable of pre-emptive action against their enemies.
We consider our position to be an extremely serious one. So do others.
Have you challenged those who believe in other identifications with those of ours in the same way as you present us with those of others?
One needs to be fair.
Please note that we receive a lot of claims and counter-claims from many different people. Yours is not necessarily better nor more serious than any of the others but we are relating to it for our own reasons.
I went to the URL you quoted.
The quote you made says:
# it is clear from Haza"l [the Sages] that the 10 tribes are in North Korea#
I could not find these words in the URL you sent but accept your declaration that it is there, somewhere.
It is however incorrect and blatantly false!
No such source exists from among the Sages, anywhere!
Why invent things?
The only source that exists is the one we are directed to (in the URL)Â which is part of a work in Hebrew. This source is called, "Sod HaChashmal" which in modern Hebrew would mean "The Secret of Electricity" but here refers to the secret of a certain type of angel who are called chashmal.
I found a few esoteric, not necessarily convincing, confusing and confused statements identifying Korea with the Ten Tribes, withÂ Edom, and/or with Gog and Magog.
The source you quote from is NOT considered an authority. At least not yet. It is someone writing at present who here and there brings quotations of interest along with much that is not. He also seems sometimes to be working from memory and to have confused and conflated parts of different verses with each other.Â When he does give chapter and verse it often turns out to be the wrong one!
[ps. If you want sources with a bit of esotericism why not cope with our Bible Codes whose evidence is very strong and all in our favor?
These proofs of ours from therÂ Bible Codes are often VERY VERY strong BUT we only use them as adjuncts, or points of additional interest, AFTER we have proven the main case from explicit verses in the Bible and historical evidence.
We too in the past have shown that Korea in the future may be part of the forces of Gog. Nevertheless this would not make them part of the Ten Tribes.
"Brit-Am Now"-559.Â #1. Is Korea Gog of "Gog and Magog"?
The source you quotedÂ
cites the Commentator Malbim saying that the Ten Tribes are in the east.
# The Malbim (Isaiah 59:19) says the Ten Tribes are in the east where they were exiled as it is written, "I will bring your offspring from the east andÂ from the west I will gather you in ". From there miracles and wonders will be revealed first,Â the Redeemer will be revealed in the east, as it is written,"Â
Isaiah 41:22 "Who raised up one from the east? Who in righteousness called him to His feet?"
That the East will see the glory of the Lord and His wonders, and the west where the exiles of Judah and Benjamin are scattered. They will hear of the miracles from afar and see the name of the Almighty coming from a distance.
Â ...'for he will come', 'Like an overflowing stream (Isaiah 66:12) This is the Camp of Gog and Magog, 'and I will bring you from the ends of the North' (Jeremiah 6:22) .Â
After quoting the Malbim about the Ten Tribes being in the east,Â your source (Rabbi Fish?) says:
# From the north i.e. from North Korea, which is found in the east of the world, as suggested in the verses concerning the awakening of redemption.
Â Isaiah 41:
2 Who raised up one from the east?
Who in righteousness called him to His feet?
[The Hebrew word translated as "called him" is YiKra-ayhu]
TheseÂ letters, Â [YiKra-ayhu] [states the author of the Korea essay]Â are found in the word Korea [??].
[Note the verb quoted does not spell Korea but only contains some of the same letters!Â How desperate can one get?]
Â He then goes on and makes claims that do not fit in with the verses and even if they did would not prove anything.
Towards the end of this section he says:
# And I heardÂ in the name of the Kabbalist Rabbi Nachman that the people who will come from the end of the world to fight against EdomÂ is North Korea. #
What kind of source is this?
Who did he hear from?
And if he did say it does that mean the Ten Tribes are there?
By "Rabbi Nachman the Kabbalist" does he mean (as would seem) Rabbi Nachman of Braslov (1772-1810)?
Up until 1910 both North Korea and South Korea were united as part of the Korean Empire. Maybe Rabbi Nachman did prophesy that a state known as North Korea would exist and have eschatological significance? It is more likely however that he did not.
Anyway Amnon, you evidently are familiar with these types you are quoting from and who are advocates of the Korean solution. Internal evidence indicates that not only the person presenting the URL and its sources but also the source (Sod HaChashmal) quoted are native English-speakers.Â Why not ask them to relate to Brit-Am/Hebrew Nations claims? What could they be afraid of?
The source you quoted and whose relevant passage we could not find, also said (according to you):
"Rav Eliyahu Avihayil Shlit"a, who deals with 10-tribe issues, that they found tribes in South Korea that they think are descendants of the 10 tribes.Â And similarly, they have also written me in the name of Dr. Avigdor Shahan."
Â Avihayil (Avichail) founded Amishav which has been followed by a cloned organization headed by Michael Freund and called Shavei Israel. They search for the Ten Tribes amongst eastern peoples.
We have answered the claims they make several times over, e.g. see:
Hoax. Bnei Menashe in Burma- a Christian Pentecostal Myth
As for Dr. Avigdor Shachan (Shahan), he wrote "In the Footsteps of the Lost Tribes" , (Hebrew original 2003, English version 2007), about finding, he claimed,Â the Ten Tribes in the east.
In the beginning of the English version Shachan (p. xx) has a whole page dedicated to a single sentence saying:
# "When we are unable to reach the truth that which seems most reasonable is the closest to it"#
At the beginning of the Hebrew version, Shachan (p.10) says:
#To theÂ Reader
#Those who yearn for that which was lost in the fog of secrecy and riddles in the depths of forgetfulness will find their imaginations making up for that which was lost through the troubles of time....
#To those who find inÂ this account only imaginations and fancies, let them consider it only as an intellectual exercise suggesting a solution to the riddle of the Ten Tribes....
In other words he admits that his account might be based on fanciful fictions!
Shachan does not speak of Korea but he deals with Japan at some length.
We have dealt with Japan elsewhere.
The JapaneseÂ are not Hebrews!
What kind of arguments are you sending me Amnon?
This is the kind of thread you have presented concerning the claim that the Ten TribesÂ are in Korea:Â
Such and such a person quotes from so and so in the name of he-and-who in this and that verse that is not actually there as confirmed by Mr. X who admits to notÂ believing in it and anyway turns out to have been speaking about something else that is quite different.Â
We all have our bad days, Amnon.
How do you deal with Brit-Am proofs showing the Ten TribesÂ to be amongstÂ Western Peoples?
List of 122 (was 110) Brit-Am Biblical Proofs
1. Ends of the Earth: Isaiah 24:16, 26:15, 41:8-9 43:6 49:6
2. Isles Isaiah 24:15Â 49:6 60:9 Jeremiah 31: 9-10
3. Thighs, Peninsulas, and Coasts: Jeremiah 31:8
4. Tarshish (Atlantic Ocean Area) Isaiah 60:9
5. Western Location:Â Isaiah 24:14, Hosea 1:10
6. Located to the Northwest of the Land of Israel: Isaiah 49:12
7. In the "North" Land:Â Jeremiah 3:18Â 31: 6-10
8. Australia ("Land ofÂ Sinim") Isaiah 49:12
See also Brit-Am Computer Codes on Australia and New Zealand
9. Best Places (Atziliyah) Isaiah 41: 9
10. Fires in the Isles referring to Celtic Britain Isaiah 24:15
11: Zarephath, meaning France and Britain, Obadiah 1:20 (see also Bible Codes connecting Reuben with Tsarafat).
12. Dolmens showing Pathway of MigrationÂ Jeremiah 31:21
13. Many Waters (Several Oceans) Numbers 24:7
B. RECOGNIZABLE SYMBOLS
14. Bald-Headed Eagle (symbol of USA) Micah 1:16
15. Lion and Unicorn (Symbol of Britain) Numbers 24:7-9
C. HISTORICAL BEHAVIOR
16. Cyrus: Messiah son of JosephÂ Isaiah 44:28
17. Rule Over OTHER Peoples:
Genesis 27:29 48:19 "A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS" (Hebrew: "Malo HaGoyim" i.e. Complete the Peoples, Onkelos: = Rule over the nations), Psalms 47:3
18. Being Recognizable as a "Brit-Am" Isaiah 42:6 49:8 Covenant of the People
19. Seafarers Isaiah 42:10
20. Be the Dominant World Power Numbers 24:7-9 Micah 5:7-9
21. Military Might: Deuteronomy 33:27 33:29 Jer. 51:20-21
22. The Battle-Axe of the Almighty or "Police-Man of the Globe"
Jeremiah 51:20 Zechariah 10:7
23. Defeat Edom (Germany and Europe) Ez. 25:14 Obad. 1:18
24. Light for the Gentiles Genesis 12:2-3, 18:18-19, 22:18Â Â Isaiah 42:1 42:6 Amos 5:14-15
25: Alcoholic Drunkards Isaiah 28:1, 3
26. Separate from Judah: Isaiah 11:12-13Â 49:21
27. Not known to Judah:Â Isaiah 49:13-14, 21. Hosea 1:7
28. Christianity: Note: Christianity is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN TO JEWS!!
It may however have a role to play concerning the Ten Tribes, see Hosea 2:8, 2:13, 2:16Â 11:12Â Jeremiah 31:6.
29. Gomer: Linkage with European nations;Â Hosea chapter one
30. Numerous: Genesis 15:5, 22:17,Â 24:60, 32:12, Numbers 23:10, Isaiah 10:22, 24:16, 26:15 Hos.1:10
31. Agricultural Plenty: Gen 27:28 49:25 Deut 33:13-16Â Hoshea 2:8
32. Mineral Resources Genesis 49:25Â Deuteronomy 33:13, 15
33. GATE(s) OF YOUR ENEMIES (International Strategic Points) Genesis 22:17Â 24:60
34, 35, 36. Cush (India), Egypt, Chains in Slaves from Africa to be taken overseas to homeland Isa. 44:28Â also Isa 43:3 45:14
37.Â Ruled by Sons of David Jeremiah 33:22, 26
38.Â Headed by Kings Genesis 17:6, 16,Â 35:11
G. ANCESTRAL NAMES IN GENERAL
39. The name Hebrew (The Western "Celts" called themselves "Iberi" meaning "Hebrews"!):Â Genesis 14:13 39:17 40:15 1:12Â 43:32Â Jonah 1:9
40. Isaac: (Genesis 21:12 48:16). Scythians, Zohak, Ishkuza, Sacasson, Saxon.
41. Jacob: Isaiah 49:6 Tribes of Jacob: Union Jack, Yankee,
42. Israel: "Isru" traditional ancestor of the Irish and Scottish
43. John Bull (nickname for Britain):Â Deut 33:17Â Jeremiah 31:18 "Aegel" (Angle) was a nickname for Ephraim
44-114. Seventy Tribal and Clan Names many of which are still in use.
Each Name deserves to be registered as proof in its own right since it usually occurs several times over in conjunction with other clan names of the Tribe and in similar Line of Camp Marching Alignment as described and illustrated in our work The Tribes.
H. NATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
115. Nobility Principle associated withÂ EphraimÂ (UK) Jer. 31:20
116. Representative Democracy associated with Manasseh (USA) Genesis 41:51
117. The name "America" from Machir firstborn of Manasseh. USA the majorÂ Capitalist nation and "Machir" denotes Principle of Sale.
118. Zebulon on the shores of the Sea (Gen 49:13) Sabulingoi (People of Zebulon) in Holland who do literally dwell on the sea-shores.
119.Proof from Biblical Brit-Am Computer Codes
121. Object of Islamic Terror
122. Numerous Other Proofs in Scripture and Related Sources.