Lost Ten Tribes Studies (2 March, 2015, 11 Adar, 5775)
Contents:
1. New Article. Cold Turkey
The Claim for the Turks as being Edomites
2. Alexander Zephyr:Â More Edom is Turkey with Brit-Am Reply
3. Mark Williams:Â More Edomites, Syria?
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1. New Article. Cold Turkey
The Claim for the Turks as being Edomites
http://hebrewnations.com/articles/bible/esau2/turkey.html
Extract:
We therefore see the following arguments for identifying the Turks with Edom.
1. Turkestan in Central Asia were the Turkish-speaking Tribes came from was known as Teman it is claimed but no source is given here.
2. Byzantine (Constantinople) which was conquered and renamed Istanbul had been referred to as Edom due to its Roman association.
That is about all.
We could add:
3. Esau was red and hairy. The early Turkish speaking tribes in Central Asia were described by their neighbors and the Chines as red-haired though later they intermixed with Mongols and others and largely lost this trait. The Turks have been described as the hairiest people in the world.
It could by that certain groups (such as the Isaurians) who lived in Anatolia before the Turkish speaking people conquered it and became Turkish by conquest were of Edomite origin. We have found proof of Idameretz (Land of Edom) in the region of Northern Syria and Armenia overlapping with Turkey.
[Note how even the advocates of Turkey is Edom need Brit-Am to do their work for them!]
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2. Alexander Zephyr:Â More Edom is Turkey with Brit-Am Reply
re Brit-Am Now no. 2416. Lost Ten Tribes Studies
http://hebrewnations.com/features/10/2416.html
#4. New Article. Who is Edom? Continental Europe versus Turkey as Identifications
...let me continue "Protestation" of identification Edom with
Continental Europe. Before I start, I would like to thank you kindly
for allowing this friendly disputation on your Brit-Am Magazine.
Healthy discussions of different issues and positions often lead to
the right solutions.
Here is your comment on my quotation from Jeremiah, "For, lo, I will
make you small among the heathen and despised among men" (49:15). You
say that "the Sages (Talmud Megillah 6) also said that Rome and the
German nations were Edomites and if they ever united they would
attempt to destroy the world. Well, they did unite. In 1945 the Allied
forces of Israelite origin together with the Red Army crushed Nazi
Germany and its allies, and Germany (Edom) was made "small and
despise" among the nations, as this prophecy has indicated. Well, it
was truly the case for a short time. But now Germany is reunited,
became a large, strong, prosperous and very respectful country in the
world, leader of the Common Market of Europe, this is contrary to what
the prophecy says.
Rather, these descriptions perfectly fit Turkey as Edom, as this
prophecy was fulfilled in 1917, when the allied forces of Joseph
defeated the vast, powerful, and brutal Turkish Ottoman Empire and it
disintegrated. The Empire lost its great status, and was stripped of
most of its non-Turkish possessions, including land and people. It
became the small country known as Turkey, the "Sick Man of Europe,"
despised and hated for its barbarian past. Germany is no longer "least
among the nations" and no more despised country, but Turkey is
(Compare to Ottoman Empire glorious rule for 500 years). It is
Turkey-Edom the sworn enemy of Israel now, not Germany-Assur (although
they commonly related and influenced through Hittites blood line).
Furthermore, to strengthen the point, you introduced the passage from Obadiah,
Obadiah 1:
2 I will surely make you least among the nations;
  you shall be utterly despised.
But Obadiah does not speak of Edom as representing Europe, quite on
contrary, he speaks of Edom being Turkey: "And your mighty men, O
Teman, shall be dismayed" (Obadiah 1:9). He says "Teman," not "Rome".
Everybody knows who Teman is. His entire book devoted to Esau
judgment, so it is not an accident that the prophet calls Edom as
Teman!
There is another description of Edom's land which may help us to
locate the country of Teman: "Thou should not have entered into the
gate of my people in the day of their calamity. Â Neither should thou
have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape"
(Obadiah 1:13-14). Obadiah is recognized prophet of the future. He
foreseen Edom-Teman-Turkey join coalition of murderers against Israel
under the leadership of Assur-led EU and reproached it with these
words: "Thou should not have entered into the gate of my people in the
day of their calamity" (meaning Psalm 83 secret plot to eliminate
Israel).
The prophet, according to the commentaries of Bible scholars, depicts
a country of extremely significant geostrategic importance whose
location is at the crossroads of Europe and Asia. Obadiah speaks of
the modern-day Muslim Republic of Turkey as the land of Edom and the
country of the Edomite people of Teman, the grandson of Esau, the son
of his firstborn, Eliphaz. Teman was one of the most important "dukes"
of Edom and his name is used as a synonym for Edom itself (Genesis
36:15, 42; Amos 1:12; Obadiah 1:9).
Besides, your position on Edom as Continental Europe completely
removes the possibility of existing of modern days Assyria as Germany,
which is not in line with many Biblical prophecies of Assur in the End
Times: Isaiah 14:24-28; 19:23-25; 31:8; Hosea 5:13; entire book of
Nahum and plenty more (who else is this mighty Assur in those
important prophecies)? Also, I have not hear a word of events
described by the prophet Daniel (11:40-45), importance of which I
outline in my arguments in respect to correctly identifying nations in
the prophecies of Psalm 83.
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Brit-Am Reply:
The word translated as  "small"  in Jeremiah 49:15 in Hebrew is "Katan" which may also connote petty-minded or inferior in some way.
The Germans are admired, hated and loathed in equal measure.
See:
Insults and Insulting Quotes about Germany
http://www.insults.net/html/world/germany.html
I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.
Emperor Charles V
The German is either at your feet or at your throat
Winston Churchill
You quoted Jeremiah 49:15 the next verse says:
 Jeremiah 49:
16 The terror you inspire
  and the pride of your heart have deceived you,
you who live in the clefts of the rock,
  who hold the height of the hill.
Although you make your nest as high as the eagle's,
  from there I will bring you down,
says the Lord.
This verse recalls the eagle symbol of Rome and Germany.
It also mentions "the height of the hill". The word translated "the height" in Hebrew is Me-Rom or literally  "From Rome"!
This word also occurs in Ovadiah 1:3 which also concerns Edom.
In Psalm 140:8 we have the related related word "YeRumu" where the Sages linked the verse to Rome and Germany both of which they associated with Edom.
This might seem far-fetched to you but it is closer to reality than your "O Teman" link to the Ottoman Empire.
We see the Ancient Romans s basically descendants of Japhet but having an important element of Edom amongst their leadership. So too with Russia, Japan, and Germany.
Germany especially benefited from and was influenced by Edomites though they spread themselves around.
This does not contradict the possibility of an Assyrian input into the region.
DNA may well be proven to be determined initially by environmental factors but for the moments it is being treated as not so but rather entirely due to heredity.
With this in mind consider the Y(Male)DNA of Germany.
Germany 16 I1; 1.54 I2*/I2a;Â Â 4.5Â I2b; 16Â R1a; 44.5 R1b; 5Â G; 4.5Â J2; 5.5Â E1b1b; 1Â T; 0.5Â Q; 1Â N
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
The Is (I1, I2*/I2a, I2b) comprise about 22%. This links them to Scandinavia and the Balkans and to the Js (Jews, Armenians, Turks, Arabs, etc) of the Middle East.
R1a is 16% which links to Slavic peoples like Russia and Poland and also to part of the Aryans of India.
R1b at 44.5% links them to the peoples of Western Europe, distantly related to R1a but possibly originating from the Middle East. G at 5% links them to the Caucasus area; J2 at 4.5% to Jews, Arabs, etc; 5.5% of E1b1b (which is that of the family of Hitler) links them to the Balkans, Greece, and North Africa. It is white version of most Africans in general.
We see here the possibility of several different peoples converging and intermixing in Germany. At different stages in history one or other of these groups may have become predominant and have had a determining influence on the National Character.
See Also:
Cold Turkey
The Claim for the Turks as being Edomites
http://hebrewnations.com/articles/bible/esau2/turkey.html
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3. Mark Williams:Â More Edomites, Syria?
RE: Brit-Am Now no. 2417. Lost Ten Tribes Studies
http://hebrewnations.com/features/10/2417.html
#4. Mark Williams :Â Central European Option for Edom Seems Unconvincing!
 Central European Option for Edom Seems Unconvincing!
Shalom Yair
Actually, what I was alluding to was the fact that I thought the
European Union as an aggressive Edomite entity dedicated to making war
on Israel, alongside an array of equally hostile allies, seems
somewhat unlikely. Especially when you consider that Joseph is
supposed to be an enemy of Edom; not his ally. If we consider the UK
to be one aspect of Joseph then it becomes hard to envisage how the EU,
in its current form, could possibly become the entity prophesied.
Although I could imagine the French going along with it because (a)
they're still Catholics at heart; (b) they're Reuben and, therefore,
probably (subconsciously) bitter about losing the birthright to Joseph
and the crown to Judah and (c) they're French and think they have some
God given right to rule the world :-p
As for the others. Ireland's military is a more of a self defence
force (and not a very effective one, if push came to shove); Norway is
outside the EU (though in NATO), and Sweden, Finland, Denmark, The
Netherlands, and Belgium don't really have armed forces configured for
power projection.Â
Of course, that does leave a large chunk of the EU who might,
potentially, be Edom. BUT... I'd like to suggest a third option. One
that seems to have fallen out of favour somewhat. A country that
actually is north of Israel, is ruled by a man who's a king in all but
name, has recently become incredibly bellicose and is suffering from an
economic crisis (mostly brought on by its own actions) that makes the
Eurozone crisis look like the sniffles. Also, unlike the EU it
actually has a potential casus belli.
And it's not Turkey.
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Brit-Am Reply:
Your remarks open up the question as to when and how Prophecies are to be fulfilled.
If we expect them to happen tomorrow morning then you have a point. Otherwise it is too early to say.
Matters may change quite quickly.